49. Reinstall the frame (strut) brace (if equipped). The motor may also lack accelerating power. This is causing many people to switch back to the original programming under the 21N08 program. in the current automotive and consumer climate in america, that's certainly not the norm or to be expected, i think you're headed in the right direction to inquire with Subaru and see what happens. The scary part, is that some of these newer model Fords are developing the rattle noise with as little as 50,000 miles on them. Make sure it is in the unlocked position. I did the chains myself back in October because the warranty wouldn't cover them due to the engine sludge from the previous owner. 18. Tally how many spark plug wires are present. I fought hard for a new engine but Ford said rebuild. Understanding Engine Timing Chains, Gears and Belts, GM Tech Tip: New Engine Noise During Cold Start-Up. Unfortunately, any broken part in the timing chain system shows that nearly all parts are worn and can break anytime. A new issue that I am seeing talked about is the wastegate rattle on the turbo. +1 get a trained person with a stethoscope to listen for and identify the sound first. Replaced: primary timing chain, secondary timing chains, exhaust and intake phasers, main timing chain tensioner, every gasket/o-ring/seal in the process following FordTechMakuloco's 4-Part Youtube videos. BMW use timing chains in almost every model of engine that they produce. Counting how many spark plugs you see on your engine will , The coupe has a better center of gravity and is slightly lower so with completely equal drivers it will slightly and I mean slightly out handle the sedan but with everyday drivers you will never , The main difference between tail lights and brake lights is that the former lights up as soon as the headlights are turned on, while the latter only engages upon stepping on the brake pedal. The average cost to replace timing chain tensioner is around US$1000 to US$1600. Then stop at the TDC mark. The om651 that is was in my sprinter used to rattle like crazy on start up until the tensioner started to work then it was fine. I doubt that oil viscosity has anything to do with this. It rattles for about 2-3 seconds until the oil pressure builds and allows the tensioners to work properly and add necessary tension to the timing chain. Accessory belt or pulley noise? How much does it cost to replace a timing chain on a 2013 BMW X3? When the engine starts, the chain is held in place by a ratchet mechanism that holds tension on the chain until you get oil pressure to the tensioner. MI5. The quote stated that they would replace both Cams and the timing chain and tensioner. It would rattle everytime I start the engine after it was sitting for about 1 hour or so. 7. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. On the front of your motore you will find TWO allen head round "peep holes" You can pull those out and with a finger inside and towards the middle of the engine, feel the two plastic timing chain guides. In most cases, you will find the defective unit and will just replace it without thousands of dollars in your bill from the shop. IF you feel ANY play then you likely have found your issue. The average cost for BMW X3 Timing Chain Replacement is $1520. Mine is in the shop right now having the same thing fixed. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. Try adding a liter of straight 50 or 60 weight oil and see if that helps. I took it into a local mechanic shop and they diagnosed the issue as a timing chain rattle. By Andrew Markel Dec 22, 2017 2016 Subaru Outback Limited 3.6 Twilight Blue. This noise is specifically in the top front cover area. What's the only way to deal with a rattling timing chain? Rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise to compress the auto-tensioner. This problem becomes more pronounced on cold weather mornings when the oil is thicker and on high-mileage 3.5L EcoBoost engines. If it's all about a slightly stretched chain, then nothing to worry about. Will an oil change stop timing chain noise? Excess slack in the timing chain can cause a rattling sound or even a clanking sound if the slack is severe enough to cause the chain to contact the timing chain cover. Do you hear a loud engine rattle that lasts about two seconds? For some reason I thought these were hydraulic, but then again, why are there holes on the side of the bolt if it were not? A broken timing chain will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving. Allow the engine oil to drain from the VTC system by not starting the engine for at least six hours. Make sure both camshafts line up as shown in step 15. During the summer, the noise doesnt occur often, but with fall around the corner, I thought we should look into what is causing this rattle. Adjust if needed. However, i will also hunt down the GM Service rep here on the board. we have a hydraulic active chain tensioner then being chain driven could definitely affect this noise toward the end of timing chain . 20. With premium diesel, you have a lot to lose, and nothing to gain. 1. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Apply compressed air to pressure port No. A loose timing chain can really make a rattling sound. The Harley folks know where to get it. Unless there is a specific fault, the timing chain should be replaced between 80,000 and 120,000 miles. Truck has 7700 miles on it now and going into the dealer this Sunday. Hey! Thought it fixed . check out the. !This is not a sponsored video. In the best case, you wont gain anything. Phil OP gr_supra_lt First Name Martynas Joined Dec 5, 2021 Threads This site is too much fun to not be a supporter, Some of what I know comes from experience, some from reading or listening,-, Informal Lounge, Introductions, General Discussion, FWD DeVille 1985-2005, Fleetwood, and 60 Special. Oil level good I check out daily. Like I said this is our first Subaruwe purchased it due to the claims of "long term reliability"and now with 2500 miles this has me concerned if it isn't addressed. Can you prevent a timing chain from rattling somehow? Recommended Services. in this thread in this sub-forum in the entire site. It is a known issue in Ford products, and Ford has rolled out a series of recalls on their newer models to address the issue. i have it also on my 2.5 legacy. 37. Required fields are marked *. 23. IMO the timing chain is an integral part of a fully assembled long block's valve train. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. i just put it up there with the " add a quirk" list. (75 Nm). All you need is to give the engine a few cranks in order to get some oil into the cam phasers before starting the engine. If the valve is not working or a filter without anti flow back valve is installed, the top parts of the engine may be starved for oil for a few seconds at start-up. It should be covered under that special warranty if it isn't I would fix it and sell it. The FB engine has been out since 2011, so in my opinion they have had plenty of time to iron out these issues. 2009-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt If the cassettes (guides) are worn, there is no helping the situation without remove and replace of the timing set (R&R). How much does it cost to fix a BMW timing chain? Turns out the Ford cold start rattle is a cam phaser rattle. Usually, after 50 to 60k miles the cars start making this noise. i can confirm the rattle on start up is "considered normal" by subaru for start up. In which the service is around US$600 to US$1000 while aftermarket auto parts are estimated between US$450 and US$600. Does a loud timing chain mean it needs to be replaced right away? Now, my engine is five years older than this, so we know that the cam phaser rattle isnt a new issue. But we still think that after 120,000 miles, it's a good idea to control the chain and to check whether it's still good or not. In the worst case scenario, you might end up with damaged mechanicals due to premium diesel. All Rights Reserved. I often lurk but this is my first official post. For the more educated, it sounds like an aggressive overhead cam rattle. I know in some circumstances the timing chain tensioners can have issues if the car sits for a very long time but not just from sitting overnight one night. Most of this article has been focused on the cold start rattle noise. Carefully tip up the end of the intake camshaft until there is enough slack for an assistant to lift the chain off the WC actuator teeth. As we understand the problem, as the 3.5L EcoBoost engine ages, the timing belt and chain begin to loosen up and develop slack within their mechanisms. Everything is purchased by us!The video is meant for entertainment purposes only. Then lift your foot off the gas and start the car normally. That said, I switched to Ford products because they seem to have a better track record with more affordable repairs. H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. If the belt is already broken, the engine wont have enough compression to start. Was the engine warm or cold? It uses 0w-20 oil, so I believe it more to be a design issue maybe? Unusual noises: Especially when idling, but not just when idling, you may hear your engine rattle. Since it will only cost an oil change and $6 of ATF, it's worth a try. Here are some tips to follow when replacing a spark plug. Install the camshaft holders. Will thicker oil reduce timing chain noise? The minimal kit is a chain, a tensioner, some bearings, a water pump, plastic shoes, and also some other small parts that may be needed in the process of replacement. You could try using a thicker oil like 10W40 to reduce the noise. ~ The Cheshire Cat (, 2019 2.5i Limited Forester (hers) (4th Subie), 2014 Impreza Premium (mine)(#5). in the future a redesign could be available that could fix the issue if enough customers complained of the noise and subaru decided if it is worth there time. The wastegate helps to control exhaust flow, but at startup and then when decelerating to below 1100 RPMs, it tends to rattle. Feed the tool down through the camshaft drive chain to rest on the timing chain. I still think I might sell it after it's repaired. 5 rocker shaft holder. Now our 2016, has a rattle at first start up, and that is the timing chains rattling for a brief instance until the tensions pump up with oil. He hooks a spring to the wastegate to stop it from rattling. Because the tensioner is hydraulic, and pressurized with engine oil. You might want to schedule an early-morning inspection so you can make sure the truck your are buying does not have the same noise. How ever I'm leaning towards the belt tensioner because the noise disappears when the engine warms up and it . This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Is it safe to drive with a rattling timing chain? It is recommended to replace your timing chain before failure as repair prices can become very high from internal engine damage if left. Like this content? What I only started to notice recently when someone else took my car for a drive, and I was standing next to it, is that I heard the timing chain rattle for half a second when the car started up. If this is your first visit, be sure to Here's What You Can Do, Radiator Water Level Goes Down: Here are 5 Possible Reasons. The valves themselves will bend and potentially ruin the engine. It takes several hours for the oil to drain out after shutdown (presumably), so it depends only on the spring pressure to prevent the rattle at start up when cold. Since I know about the warranty (I also have a 2009 JSW 2.0 TDI with 330,000 miles :-D) I looked closely at the 3.0 warranty. This sound is particularly noticeable when you start the F150. Is a brake light and running light the same? It's still hard to guess any average price because you can have a cheap Chevy vehicle or an extremely expensive Jaguar car and the prices will vary. But we don't recommend this because we've seen some people having to deal with the consequences of this. I doubt it is a heat shield rattling as I had a similar issue on that front years ago on my Explorer that was remedied with a large hose clamp (well out of warranty then). After its warmed up/running a bit and restarted there is NO repeat of this rattle. Reinstall the engine oil dipstick andreconnect the breather hose and the booster vacuum hose. A broken timing chain will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving. BMW Petrol Engine Timing Chain Failure A range of BMW petrol engines in cars registered between 2001 to 2015 appear to have a design problem affecting the timing chain or tensioner. Place the vehicle in park or neutral and set the emergency brake. Raise the hood. If you own one of the new 3.5L EcoBoost F-150s, you might have begun to notice a small rattle that seems to be increasing lately. Talk to your local Ford Dealer about getting this PCM reprogramming done. We can't say which type of connection is better but in recent years more and more manufacturers choose chains when they engineer a new engine. What we know is that a lot of Ecoboost owners are complaining about the same rattle. The real issue is that the timing chain tensioners wear so quickly. On a scale of 1-10, it's a 2 for me. Check the valve cover gasket. Anything I can do to save $8500 is worth it. By Engine Builder. :grin2:. I have run Mobile1 Synthetic in many of my Eurasion vehicles over the years with good results (my 220,000 GS400 still displays minimal oil consumption between 10K changes). Luckily we caught it early enough that the dealer had to bite the bullet. Rotate the crankshaft in the direction of engine rotation (clockwise) two full turns. If Im not in the garage creating content, youll find me outside, running, canoeing, and traveling. The other noise is rattlish as well between 3500 and 5000 rpm. These chains need a lot of tension on them to keep from jumping. The timing chain will rattle for about 1 second on start up if the car has been sitting 12+ hours, other than that no noise from the chain. The key thing is to not burn out your starter. This should resolve the cold start rattle. That doesnt sound good is normally what we say. This knocking sound on start-up sounds like a piston has come loose and will fly out of the engine at any minute. The quote was 3k CAD. Don't give up. A normal engine has a consistent and smooth sound that . Cold Start Rattle - Your Timing Chain is stretched! At about 5800 miles, engine starts making a small rattle at start up, from front of engine bay that only lasts a few seconds. Step 1. As long as it does not get worse over time. Some owners on this site have blamed the noise on the timing chain. The BMW 320d 2.0 Diesel N47D20A and the BMW 320d 2.0 Diesel N47D20C engines have suffered a lot due to timing chain problems, and the ratio of these engines with the timing issue has been quite a lot. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. My truck only has 19k miles and the oil has been changed every 5k. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Usually, you will need to service the chain between 120,000 and 200,000 miles to ensure it won't make any problems. Remove the lock pin from the auto-tensioner. My goal is to empower more people to be self-sufficient. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); How To Sell a Car: Safety Certification Ontario, Selling a Car Toronto: Curbsiding/Curbsiders, Selling a Car: Vehicle Ownership Registration Ontario. Replace if needed. Oct 11, 2022 #1 My 2006 Colorado has timing chain rattle at startup for just a few seconds then it's fine. Tensioners make sure the chain is tightly wound to the pulleys and gears. Clean the head cover contacting surfaces. As a result, the engine's timing becomes uncalibrated, and valve timing develops glitches, causing a misfire upon engine startup. To unlock a locked VTC actuator. Rattle in the Engine During Startup or Idling. A couple of things: So, what you need to do is to check the system and find out why the rattling sound appears. Metal shavings in oil: The timing chain will wear out over time. It does not store any personal data. Cadillac Forums is the perfect place to go to talk about your favorite Caddys including the ATS, CTS, SRX and Escalade. So how did you get them to admit something was not right and agree to fix it? Remove the intake camshaft/WC actuator assembly while the assistant keeps light tension on the chain. Recent motor rebuild, so a new pump was installed, right?, New tensioner: what brand? Technical resources to help diagnose and repair engine-related service issues. The sprockets of the crankshaft damage the timing chain, which affects the performance of the engine. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. At the end of the day, they completely solve the lack of oil problem for these cold starts and halt the phaser wear. They aren't hard to do its just repetitive. How much will you spend for repairing a rattling timing chain? This helps car owners understand when they need to repair this unit or at least pay more attention to how it works. If so how do you replace it? I don't think the tensioner is hydraulic. The electrodes and porcelain can reveal short- and long-term problems if you know where to look. Remove the entire liquid gasket from the chain case and the No. Cover the pressure port No. How Long With The Ford Expedition Engine Last? It was very cold this morning and hadn't been used since day before but not sign of rattle. Completed my timing chain rattle slap on cold start-up job. 0:00 / 4:21 ENGINE NOISE RATTLE COLD START OR ALL THE TIME. Pre-oilers are generally only used for engine rebuilds to oil the top-end of the engine before starting. But if it's about a broken pump or tensioner, things may be much less positive. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of the tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not Auto Repair Guys. Sounds like it's your issue. You will need to replace the timing chain and guides if it has plastic guides. Analytical cookies are used to understand how visitors interact with the website. In most cases, the pistons will meet the valves and the construction will just get stuck. Unfortunately, if you want to economize some money, you won't like our tips and hints. So I have a chatter on cold start. __________________________________________________________________. Suspected timing chain problem. agree, the short rattle sound at startup is mildly annoying. FCPeuro has the best price. What can go wrong? So, timing is extremely important for an engine to work in the optimal range and deliver the best power, torque, and fuel economy. At cold start-up, the engine rattles loudly for about two seconds. Have an assistant hold the camshaft/VTC actuator assembly steady on the padded workbench with an open-end wrench. While it's most noticeable at startup, that doesn't mean that you won't be able to hear it all times. 2007 Hardbody, with about 100K on the engine. Could you post a mini DIY? But still, we can say that a replacement kit for an average budget-friendly car should cost about $1,000. Line up the marks you made on the chain with the punch marks on the exhaust camshaft sprocket and VTC actuator. Torque the bolts to 22 Nm (16 lb-ft). Once there is sufficient oil pressure created in secondary chain tensioners, they provide operating tensions to timing chains and the rattling stops. Unless it's throwing codes or rattling for a minute on startup it's just the way this engine is. Well, there is no average rule on the life expectancy of timing chains. This procedure does not require the complete removal of the cam chain and associated parts, so repair time is shorter. 25. I gave my VIN to my friend who is the engineer at GM Canada. 2. See if you hear it from outside. Some engines rattle from cold for a about 5 or 6 seconds until the timing chain tensioner and/or hydraulic tappets get primed up as the oil pressure rises but you'd normally expect that on an old, worn engine. 50. User sixpack577 on the FordF150 forum has one of the best ideas Ive seen. Mine is at the dealer now. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. This can happen in 1 mile or in 20,000 miles. Hi there yes, a worn or stretched timing chain, weak timing chain tensioner, or worn timing chain guides can cause misfiring, cam timing problem codes, low power and generally poor running of the engine. The only dumb question is the unasked question! OEMs consider the spark plugs a part of the emissions system on most modern vehicles. Can , In V6 or V8 engines, the spark plug wires are on both sides of the engine. Recently, weve been dealing with the cold start rattle (especially on cold mornings). As many of you guys know, I performed a complete M54 rebuild last year. The oil feed passageways clogging was a common issue in the past. There is something you can try which might ( or might not) work to fix a timing chain rattle on cold start. And then start the car normally. For a luxury model, the price of a replacement kit may cost over $4,000. Some Ford vehicles equipped with a 4.6L 3-valve or 5.4L 3-valve engine may exhibit a ticking and/or knocking noise after reaching normal operating temperature, or a rattle upon starting. Secure the chain to the sprocket with a wire tie. Really hope I don't run into any headaches having them fix it. Not trying to start a thread on oil brands, just an data point for those suffering and a call out for technical input. Next option is either take it to the Stealers, or a . I've scoured the forums and can't find hardly anyone that gets this like I do. A common finding in a vehicle with a bad timing chain is unusual rattling noise when the engine is started or when brakes are engaged. No. Wow does the truck run better! Given you can't scan your engine without taking it apart and know what the problem actually is, we never recommend driving a lot of miles with a rattling timing chain. Car won't start. not too worried about it but it is annoying. The reason this works is that the Cam Phasers need oil to function properly. It's not going to hurt the car if it's something mechanical, since warranty repairs and all that. Timing chain noise is commonly most noticeable during cold startup of the vehicle when oil pressure and oil flow is at its lowest. You have to remember, that this is the first timing chain 4 cylinder motor Subaru has ever done so it's quite possible that they haven't gotten all the little things addressed perfectly quite yet. No codes/DTC? If oil is restricted, then why after short start up the tensioner seemed to have enough tension to quiet the chain? Before installing the new and unlocked VTC actuator onto the camshaft. With enough pushing they will fix it under warranty. When installed and rotated this way the VTC actuator will not lock. A bad tensioner will leave the chain loose and ready to jump a tooth or fall off all of the way. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. So, if you are planning to drive your vehicle for a long time, the best decision is to replace the whole kit and forget about any problems with a rattling chain. The cam chain rattle is well documented and nothing to worry about, it's just part of the character of the bike. Its behind the timing cover. 19. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. Something you don't really want unless it's unavoidable. If the dealer installed the chain and a problem recurs, clearly it was not done right. Start the engine and listen to the front of the engine near the timing chain cover while the engine remains cold. My car's problem was a rattle during start up. Evader53, Jul 11, 2019 #1 Mountun Goat likes this. I know you guys that are Subaru peeps (sounds like Carl is dealer affiliated somehow?) Mine is pretty consistent and does it every time it is cold. Reinstall the right front wheel (if removed). 28. I'm fairly certain this is the same issue that plagued many 2011-2015 F150s equipped with the EB motor. full of oil when engine is off. The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". Align the hole in the lock and auto-tensioner, then insert a 1.2 mm (0.05 in) diameter stopper lock pin. Changing the oil and oil filter every 5,000 miles. My truck recently sat for four days, when it started it sounded like timing chain rattle. Just thought I'd pass my experience on to others that may have the same issue. Start the engine and listen for a loud rattle on start-up. I would bet the upside down oil filter does have an effect, though. How long should an average timing chain last? We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. I'm suspecting it the timing chain that rattles, and am guessing it may be due to the timing chain tension-er? 31. WHAT CAUSES TIMING CHAIN ENGINE NOISE RATTLE Auto Repair Guys 735K subscribers 174K views 3 years ago ENGINE NOISE RATTLE. If the tensioner fails and the chain becomes loose, the timing of the engine is thrown off. Most OE spark plugs have a life of more than 50,000 miles, thanks to electrodes that contain precious metals like platinum and iridium. Without it, the engine will not run. How many hours does it take to replace a timing chain? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Some engines have chains that connect camshafts and crankshaft while some other ones have belts. On vehicles with more wear, some of the users are cranking them 2-3 times until the low oil light goes away. My name is Zachary Drumm! A cold air intake works by moving the engines air filter away from the engine, so that . just a delay in oil pressure build up and design of the chain tensioner. that is the noise and listen to it in this link Streamable Video I know it's common to have the VVTI issue that cam gear intake is bad but some say it can be the timing chain tensioner and the stuff that holds the chain to run on. We can't say for sure whether you can drive with a rattling chain or not. It just comes and goes but only rattles on some start ups. Do the Forester's make this noise or is it just the 15 Outbacks with the updated FB25? Pretty sure it's mecanical. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. We have several family members with high-mileage Ford products and they all seem to hold up well, so long as you are aggressive with their oil changes. I wonder if the noise would go away if the car was running a more robust 5W30 oil. Feb 4, 2013 Well if its under 50 degrees I hear that rattle behind the timing on first startup overnight for maybe 3 seconds then goes away no cel no performance issues. 2008 LL Bean L lubi Registered 2011 Forester 2.5X Automatic BTW is the valve a separate item from the oil filter? Check the spark plug seals for damage. May 7, 2021 I have a 2014 Rav 4 with 65k mi on it. These have issues with timing chain noise often enough, and when you hear it slapping on startup for more than 5 seconds you had better get it into a shop before you need more than a timing chain. Personally I would take it to a different dealer. 1 cylinder. Then wait three hours before starting the engine. Also the rattle is only the first half a second after start. Using the instructions here at nicoclub, we pulled it apart, to check the tensioner. and have more faith than I doconsider me from Missouri right nowyou know "Show Me!" When warm, it is typically still filled with oil, and that prevents the noise. The bypass valve is to bypass the filter if it becomes plugged. Most, if not all, of these problems will illuminate the Check Engine light. Engines need perfect timing for optimal work. If you guys find this mildly annoying. Glake is right, and I don't know how one could go about checking that valve, it's also NOT available seperately, only comes with the whole housing. Secure the timing chain to the A/C compressor hose using a wire or zip tie to keep it from falling into the front cover. 47. Do the new SRX's suffer the same problem?? Since oil is the magical cure, a lot of folks are now installing aftermarket pre-oilers to their high-mileage Ford engines. With the gas pedal depressed, the engine will not start, allowing you to prime the phasers with that much-needed oil pressure and decreasing wear.

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